The Late Invoices Show
Cameron Hall and Matt Pearson have been working in the creative industry for almost a decade. This podcast is here to share stories, insights, lessons learned, industry secrets, and talented guests of the creative industry - and maybe help you on your own creative journey along the way 🌱
Cameron is a freelance Director of Photography (DoP) and runs his own video production company MAKER, servicing clients in the sports and automotive industry, having worked with the likes of GQ and GQ Sports, Universal, Sports Direct, Aston Martin, McLaren, as well as a portfolio of A-list talent such as Max Verstappen, Lando Norris, Anthony Joshua, Rowan Atkinson, Santan Dave, a plethora of footballers, and many more.
Matt is a professional Photographer having worked with the likes of Puma, Adidas, the NFL, Chelsea FC, Ed Sheeran, Justin Bieber, Terry Crews, Ashley Walters, and many more. Matt is also well known for work produced shooting on Polaroid with his 'Queens of Air' 50 years of Nike and individual projects advocating for mens mental health.
The Late Invoices Show
#053 | Why Is There No Work? & Navigating Talent Ego!
Ever wondered how to manage egos? Join us on Late Invoices as we share real struggles of working with high-profile talent, and how even the talent's team can have an ego! Matt also opens up about his recent stress from landing high-profile shoots with brands like Puma, but still facing inconsistent work. Despite these daunting pressures, we find comfort in sharing our experiences and supporting each other through tough times.
Cameron talks about how a more relaxed approach has reignited his passion for video production, drawing inspiration from Rick Rubin's "The Creative Act: A Way of Being." - Through these stories, we underscore the importance of setting professional boundaries and understanding the financial realities of pursuing art in a city like London.
Tune in for a raw, honest conversation that will resonate with anyone navigating the highs and lows of the creative industry.
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Hello and welcome to episode 53 of the Latent Voices show. I'm Matt Pearson. I'm joined by my co-host, Cameron Hall. Hello, and on today's show we are talking about ego when dealing with clients and how it can affect our day-to-day work, especially on set, plus a little life update. So sit back, relax and enjoy the show.
Speaker 2:Okay, so welcome to the episode, matt, hello, hello brother. Hilariously we almost didn't end up here tonight because I messaged Matt like oh, what time are we meeting at the office for this pod? And he's like what, mate?
Speaker 1:Are we meeting? What's going on? I was always coming in. I was just testing you. Okay, right, no, no, I didn't know if we were coming in or not. It was kind of like, well, we could be.
Speaker 2:you know, I was on call like a firefighter like I'm there waiting for the text, but like I wasn't sure if it was happening, but I kind of knew it was yeah. Yeah, it was like a 90 to 80 percent like already agreed to and we were just waiting to see, yeah, but but do you know what, cameron?
Speaker 1:I'm glad you've dragged me out of my bedroom. I've been in my bedroom all day and it's great. It's miserable.
Speaker 2:It's a very rainy day in london so it's nice to actually interact with the human, and it goes dark earlier as well nowadays, which I love, by the way why, oh my god mate, creativity off your rocker like it goes dark earlier. It gets to about 4 pm and all of a sudden you get like a spark of inspiration and creativity and you're like yeah no, that does not work for me that does not work for me.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, my room has been really dark all day, like it's just, it's weird. I'm not you, I'm not used to it, but you know, it is what it is like. I'm glad you've dragged me out of the house, though I can say I'm glad to interact with a human, because I was in a bit of a. I had a little vent to you, didn't I, when I, when I came in the office.
Speaker 1:Second, ago because I'm just in a bit of a not bad mood. But I'm feeling a little stressed, and I'm stressed not because I'm busy with work. I'm stressed because I'm not busy with any work.
Speaker 2:So on episode 51, you mentioned how you had a bit of on and off with work over the last couple of weeks, and so you've had work. You've done some puma shoots and everything that you couldn't talk about yeah.
Speaker 1:So essentially, you know, I had that six week period of no work. So this, this will air next week, won't it? So it's a very up-to-date episode for those listening. So I had a six week window of no work, which was painful and I think was stressing me out more than I let myself realize, if you like. And then I had two weeks of work. And when I say I had two weeks work, I had one shoot on one week, one shoot on the other week, that's it. And then thinking, oh okay, it might pick up now. And then I've gone back into this phase again where it's quiet, like I don't have a shoot this week, I don't have a shoot next week. And we're now on 30, it's now thursday, so usually by now I'd know if I'm having a shoot next week and it's not looking like I've got one. So yeah, man, it's just, it's just squeaky bum time again and I'm like what's happening, like what's going on?
Speaker 1:um, so I actually, you know, while we're here, I was reading an article yesterday, so we've brought it up on the pod before, I'm pretty sure. Ap editor. It's the instagram page where, like anonymous, people speak about the industry. Um, yeah, ap photo editor. We've definitely mentioned on the pod before, but anyway, they did like a really brief thingy, and pro photographers say 2024 is the worst year they've ever had.
Speaker 1:But some find hope amid the challenges. So this is just a few quotes. I'm going to read you a few little snips of what people are saying around the world at the moment as photographers. Between you and me, 2024 sucks too. My market is shit, though. Should have moved 10 years ago, had to take a job in some home remodel construction instead just to stay afloat. I've been doing this for over 13 years. I went from having one of the busiest years of my career 2019 to through to 23, and I'm doing maybe 20 of that so far this year. Absolute dumpster fire of a year. If it weren't for the two jobs I have been able to snag as of this summer, I'd be in in some serious trouble. Worst year of my career two shoots a week in 2016. My peak. This is uh did three shoots all year so far in 2024. Worst year on record for me in 15 years, including COVID. These are just some, and there's a. The list goes on right.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So this is what people is going at the moment and it's just, it's weird because, like I said, I had a good few months. I had the start of the year would have been, you know, a lot worse if I didn't have my monthly retainer that I'd managed to secure. But yeah, man, these quiet months are just like testing me a bit and I'm I think the stress is eating away at me a lot more than I'm kind of letting on. So I had a bit of a rant to you, obviously before we started the recording, because you know, just bought a house, got a furnisher, all these costs are going out and stuff like that. So it's just like you need the money now more than ever and the work more than ever. I think it's also just bruising my ego a bit. I think it's probably quite normal and I'm glad that I'm emotionally aware enough to realize that, and I'm not it is eating up at me, but I'm at least I'm aware of it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, man, just just a bit bit of a funny mood about it all obviously you know it's normal, though I feel like I want to be really positive about it and be like it'll be fine man, like we know that it's going to be like that, but I also don't want to ignore what you're saying. The year has been wild, like I don't speak about it too much, just because I don't think I'm the type of person that, like I don't know, I'm not as good as outwardly talking about what I'm currently going through.
Speaker 2:It's something I know.
Speaker 1:But also you're not very negative at all. Like you barely speak on like a negative situation, like I feel, like you you're very good at, like you know what did you say to me earlier? Like speak abundantly or whatever, abundance mindset, abundance mindset, like you're very good at just like not talking negatively about the situation you're in. It's just one of those things it's.
Speaker 1:As time goes on, it feels worse yeah I think I think what's also as I've got further in my career and I'm shooting for, like, bigger brands and the rates go up and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Um you, I suppose you expect it to happen less, but it still happens yeah it's realizing that, but also understanding that as you progress through your career, you get paid more, and because you get paid more and do bigger shoots, you're probably going to work less as well. And it's also, I think, understanding that, like when you're starting out, you're doing like three, four shoots a week and they're all these like little shoots and you're just like here and they're doing like these little things, but obviously, like as you're trying to progress and get further in your career and do bigger shoots, they might only happen like twice a month, but you've still earned the same amount of money. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's also understanding that obviously that's not the situation for me at the moment, but the shoots that I have done like what? At the end of August, they were bigger shoots and you know. So I think I've got to try and remember that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess it's relative to the projects you're doing and also the prices you're charging. You'll do less but you earn the same with less work. But I think also, I think it's really easy to get really negative about it the longer it happens. So you don't have any work for two weeks. Eh it's fine, you don't have any work for three weeks.
Speaker 1:Eh it's fine, Four weeks Okay ass is getting a bitch, you know.
Speaker 2:And then as time, you know, and so I think in a way, like I remember a few years ago as well, when no-transcript Like I was fine and you was doing a little bit less, and then over through this year you've been doing fine and I've actually had way less shoots than anticipated. And now I'm kind of just like past the point where I'm like I'm not bothered anymore. This anticipated and now I'm kind of just like past the point of where I'm like I'm not bothered anymore. This year has been pretty shit in the grand scheme of things, yeah, but but it's.
Speaker 1:It comes back to that and we were saying any earlier. So, like I've dipped into my emergency fund to be able to like buy this house and, just being very open and honest, like, so my emergency fund is way less than it used to be. So that's what's stressing me out right now. Like I said to you earlier, as soon as my emergency fund's back, I'm in a situation again where I'm like, okay, I'm half as stressed, my stress levels come down by 50 because I know that, like I could have six months of no work and I'll. I know that it's the industry and it's part of it.
Speaker 1:Um, so a reason why I am stressed is because I don't have that emergency fund saved, because I've used it for other things that you know, a new chapter in my life. I've put it towards that, which is fine, like I'm aware of that. That was my sacrifice that I made. So now it's a case of like saving that back up against as a you know well, let's call it a work fund buffer. So you know, if work's quiet over two month period, like I'm sweet, you know, and it's fine. So, yeah, there's obviously lots of change happening and I think we talked about that in a previous couple of episodes. But um, yeah, man, just a little rant. I had a little rant to you earlier. I feel better for it now and, like I say, I'm glad you've got me out the house.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you've got me out the house, so it feels good. It feels good. Yeah, like you have to, I just think it's been a fucking.
Speaker 1:It's been a fucking tough year that was what I was going to bring as well, and I obviously made the point to you. So I was chatting to yaz about it, my partner and she was basically saying she thinks that brands aren't spending money at the moment because of well, they're waiting to see what the labor government do. So october 30th is when they're releasing their like manifesto, manifesto for the finance plan yeah and the way they plan to tax businesses and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:So she thinks that they're kind of the businesses and a lot of people are waiting for that to see what the government do before they then make decisions spend money because a lot of businesses could get, could get screwed for money and not sure where it's going to be spent and how things going to change yeah, so I think that could be part of it.
Speaker 1:And also, we are still coming to the end of summer. Kids are only going back to school this week, next week, and you know all of that kind of stuff. So I just think, once we're deep into september, hopefully it changes.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think it is probably the most, most reassuring reason. The entire year has pretty much been just hit or miss like we've had. We've got clients who we had regular work from for like the last four years and then this year nothing like there's been at least three biggish clients that I usually work with that I've had completely nothing from well, I suppose it's just a reminder, for if you're listening to this, guys, and you're in a similar position, I just want you to know you're not alone.
Speaker 1:It is always very reassuring to hear that other people are going through the same thing. I know it's not a good thing, but, like you know, you're saying like this year's been fucking weird. The quotes that I read out earlier from other photographers, people that have been in the industry for 15 years they're saying the same things and they're saying it's the worst year they've ever had within 15 years. What it doesn't and like. Correct me on this, and again, I don't want to be a negative nancy, but it kind of makes me uneasy about the future of the industry yeah, like the industry.
Speaker 2:It's just like if it's been this tough this year, like I also think this year has been a lot of changes with ai, the government, like you know, budgets and what like social, like what people are actually creating, and yeah, I don't know, yeah, it's. Hopefully by next year there'll be an adjustment, like maybe people are trying to find the fee and obviously there's going to be people that are super busy and there's going to be people that are really, really not busy yeah but you know there's a gradient in there, in the middle somewhere yeah, but yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't want to speak negatively on it, that's it just. Obviously I'm quite an anxious person and I'm an overthinker, so I immediately go to worst case scenario.
Speaker 2:My brain does that kind of automatically um, I think you have to be as a freelancer that only the paranoid survive. It's one of my favorite quotes, is it?
Speaker 1:okay, but anyway, let's, let's move on from there. Don't want to babble on too much. How are you? What have you been up to?
Speaker 2:oh shit, tell me, all, tell me all I'm okay, man, I've been actually really good. I feel probably the most connected to my heart than I ever have your heart or my art?
Speaker 2:sorry, my art art I hope you connect to your heart. Yeah, same, and the reason why is because I tend to I kind of have just stopped pandering, I guess to like we had this conversation a few weeks ago where, and over like maybe the last couple of months, where I've been burnt out and I've been doing my work and my art, but obviously for clients and projects, and it's always been like a work project and so the last couple of weeks, maybe last month or so, I've really just become like, oh, I'm just enjoying. It is what it is, kind of thing like if I have no work whatever, like I'll have the off, like I'm really becoming laxadaisy with not reaching out to people just because, eh, it's fine, that might backfire in about three months, I don't know. But yeah, I think I was just at the end of my Teva and I've really been, yeah, just leaning into it, really enjoying video again.
Speaker 2:I DOP'd a GQ shoot the other day with Can't Save because it's not out yet, but I was on that shoot and I've DOP'd and, you know, done the full productions of so many GQ shoots over the last five years and really, really cared about like quantifying light and the texture on the background and I think doing that it also opened my eyes to the team really valuing what you say, because, as the DOP, the gaffers and the cam ops and all these people actually turn to you and if you care about it more than everybody else, they care about it as well, and it was a really I don't know. One thing I noticed is that you care about it so much that it pisses you off when someone moves the light without telling you. That was one thing where I was like obviously amazing team.
Speaker 2:like, no complaints, I'm only joking. But yeah, I, I'm only joking but, yeah, I finished Rick Rubin's book as well loved it. Oh my god.
Speaker 1:I'm going to read it again. I'm only probably 30 pages in, but I need to finish my other book before I.
Speaker 2:It's not a bedtime book oh yeah, it is no, it's not so I put on some of that lo-fi concentration work music on YouTube or whatever and I put my headphones on read that it like centers your world back on, like your art and your creativity, and helps you understand why you feel a certain way.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I don't know, I just feel very grounded and it is a very grounding book. Like yeah, it is very yeah, like if you're a creative and you know you.
Speaker 2:You haven't got into books. I recommend just fucking picking this one up. I.
Speaker 1:I think it's called the. Art of Living.
Speaker 2:Creatively the Creative Act.
Speaker 1:The Creative Art of Living. That's what it is. No, it's not it is. It's the Creative Act.
Speaker 2:It's called the Creative Act. A Way of being, that's what it's called, unless you've got a different book that Rick Rubin just pulled. Yeah, yeah I'll link it in the show notes below yeah, that way, people will buy our amazon commission.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our affiliate code yeah um, because of that lackadaisiness and just really being bothered about the artwork and the actual video and all the shit. Yeah, it's also enabled me to, I guess, keep people accountable. So I'm still working on projects and you know, like people say that they're going to give feedback to you on a wednesday, and it gets to like friday morning and it's a bit more like I'm not available now. Sorry, like your feedback didn't come through, like I'm not available. Now I'm going to invoice you. Yeah, like it's become very holding people accountable feels a lot more professional. I think it feels a bit harsh, but you know, if you're working with someone, I think the way they hold themselves teaches people how to treat you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I true, and I think as a creative I've put with.
Speaker 2:Let's be honest, there's been a lot of shit that I've had to deal with over the last couple of years and I'm just so done with it, and so I think that also will pave the way for me to work with clients that obviously I work with amazing clients as it is already yeah, but in the future, I think, being like that.
Speaker 2:That future. I think being like that respect for you, yeah, like being like that it'll also attract the people who will continue to treat you like that and obviously it'll scare away the ones that aren't really bothered and I don't know. Yeah, it's been a very, very self-discovery kind of year and I think what's really come down to it is I completely let go of like any monetary value to it, like I do not. I'm risk like, honestly, this month, to be completely honest, I've done two shoots. I do not. I'm honestly, this month, to be completely honest, I've done two shoots. I've earned two grand total and obviously that's good enough because I've I'm not going to spend over two grand.
Speaker 1:So I've got my bills and all that shit.
Speaker 2:You do have very low bills for London yeah, to be transparent, it's like a grand and then I spend like 300 quid on food. So I spend like 1,300 quid. Yeah, that's very good.
Speaker 1:1,400 quid yeah, that's people's like rent without bills.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, and then without food and a social life. Yeah, I like my solitude and my you do, yeah, Just you know my things. But yeah, like I haven't really earned too much, I'm just not bothered. I feel like we're both a little bit, but I also don't give a shit, because I'm just past the point of caring. So, yeah, man, that's the rundown on me and how I'm feeling it's funny.
Speaker 1:Do you know what? Did you ever go to my old flat in Clapham? So not the house I'm in now, the one I've been in before, you wouldn't have been in it.
Speaker 1:No, no, anyway, one of my housemates he's looking for, obviously, a place to live because we're moving out at the end of this month and, um, the it's up for rent again our old house from two years ago. So we put it into the group chat and we paid 3200 pound a month altogether yeah, altogether for this four bed. Um, it's on for 4400 now. Holy, and it's a fucking box mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was just like I just I said to myself, I said to Yaz as well I was like I'm so glad I'm not looking for places to rent at the end of this month. Yeah, just like I can't wait to get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 2:Have my mortgage half the price like have a home, a home, home, like a real fucking home.
Speaker 1:I was just like thank fuck, it's almost like the start of your actual adult life in a weird way. Yeah, yeah, in a weird way. It kind of is partly um in some respects. Yeah. So yeah, it was weird, but anyway, the gq shoot went well yeah, yeah gq shoot went very well.
Speaker 2:Obviously, me might have been blabbing on for a bit now, so I think we'll go into more of the topic yeah, there's something you wanted to talk about yeah. So imagine this you're on set, obviously, when you're shooting famous people not necessarily the talent themselves, but they roll with teams, they roll with you know who was it.
Speaker 1:Who was it? Bleep it out really.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, yeah, yeah, really yeah. What came up is that, obviously, being on this set, you're the DP, you really care about the lighting and one of their team members. They wanted to brighten up the dark side of the face. Basically, the contrast ratio on the face was too high, so the dark quite contrasty, and we'd been waiting oh, there's another part I need to tell you about but, yeah, we'd been waiting like six hours for him to turn up, by the way, and they come in and immediately, oh, too contrasty, can we get that side of the face bright? I'm like, yeah, yeah, all good.
Speaker 2:And then, as my gaffer is turning the light to change things and move a bounce, the light goes onto the backdrop and I say, oh, gaffer, can we? Doesn't go on the background because we're going to ruin the texture of the gobo. And immediately one of their team members from the talent team turns to me and goes let's be honest, nobody really cares about your light on the backdrop it's about our blah, blah, blah and I was yeah, and in the moment I was like, yeah, yeah, of course it's about the talent and that's really rude.
Speaker 2:It is really rude, but for anybody that hasn't filmed famous people, I think it is something that you are going to have to learn to pull up with that. These people have egos and it's okay to have egos and I guess they don't necessarily mean it in a mean way, but in the moment their priority is this person needs to me to be a little good yeah like we're the shit you are kind of like here for us.
Speaker 2:People have crazy teams man, yeah, and especially if the american or they're from a different country, especially in America. When I met Taylor Swift, yeah, mate, they're going to be used to fame, they're going to be used to people crawling all over them. So we're backstage at the Graham Norton show.
Speaker 1:And Alex and or Taylor and Alex. They have a photo together and obviously I was Alex's photograph, alex's photographer. So I got a photograph of um taylor and alex together and she was like, oh you, the taylor spoke. Yeah, taylor spoke to me she was like are you, are you? Uh, the camera guy and I was like, yeah, and she was like, let's get a photo, and she was like, yeah, sure, so I got a photo of the two of them in the corridor they're like hugging they're like hugging each other.
Speaker 1:Very, very sweet moment. Got the shot and um, anyway, they carried on down the corridor and, uh, I don't know if it's her agent, her manager, her pr person. Obviously she has a team of like 20 fucking insane yeah and um, she comes straight up to me. Where's this photograph going? Who's this photograph for?
Speaker 2:me. This is what I mean.
Speaker 1:I was like uh, it's just photograph for Mate, this is what I mean they're in your business man, and I was like it's just for Alex, like it's just for Alex, it's just for her socials, and she's like okay, and just carries on walking. I'm just like Jesus Christ, like anything. Do you know what I mean? It's just like you have to advice be for dealing with egos on set after, after the little thing you've had, because it's a snide comment that someone doesn't really need to make and it does rile you up.
Speaker 1:I think the first thing and the most important thing is the fact that you were chill and you were like yeah, and you make, you like you're not angry and you don't respond back. Because if, in that situation, you respond back with something counter-aggressive, oh of course, yeah, it's game over like all it takes is for then the talent to hear that and be like I'm not working here and get up and leave and before you know, it's something you've said has ruined the entire shoot shit like that happens and also that it's not going to stick with them, but it might stick with you, yeah, when you no longer get hired to do that shoot in the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I don't. I don't necessarily have any advice, it's's just more so, like in my experience. It's something that you kind of need to be ready for. And again, especially on a set with famous people. They're going to have egos.
Speaker 1:And it might not be them Fair enough if it comes from the talent themselves.
Speaker 2:But their team is also going to have egos and, as you said with the Taylor Swift thing, like their team immediately came up to you and the also the almost treat it as if they're the authority. It's someone disregarding what you bring to the table, which I think is annoying and I think it's probably a good segue to talk actually about um.
Speaker 1:So some people and this I don't know if everyone knows this, but some people hate the way like they might be a model, they might be talent. They don't want to see themselves on camera. They're very particular about the way they look. Um, really hypercritical. What you thought of something else?
Speaker 1:I just thought of something else super hypercritical and I've had models that won't want to see the images. I've had talent okay, they're not models and there may be like a tv presenter or whatever, but they refuse to see any of the images on screen, any images on monitor, because they know that if they see them they're like nope, you know what? I'm not going to like them and I'll have a bone to pick with something.
Speaker 1:So they'd to be fair, I prefer that they'd just rather not see them, because if they know they're going to have a bone to pick and they're just completely understandable, yeah because people are suits.
Speaker 2:Everyone is super hypercritical about their own appearance and especially if that is going to be going out to you know, thousands of people online. You know you're definitely gonna. People are gonna say what they want.
Speaker 1:You become hyper aware, yeah at what point do you stand your ground? I will bite my tongue for as long as possible, just because I think that's the way I am as a human, and I will try to accommodate their needs. Um, even if they're making like rude remarks or they're being bossy, I will always just try to accommodate for what they need and get the job done. If you've got talent on side, great. The minute they're offside and they're not playing ball, it's game over.
Speaker 2:Game over you might as well go shooting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, but at what point do you don't take that back step and put your foot down? I think I'd want someone senior on set to step in. Yeah, definitely. So I don't feel like even as like a DOP or director. I still feel like I don't have the authority because I'm not the actual client. Like GQ are the client?
Speaker 2:yeah, you're saying it on behalf of the client at that point. Do you know what?
Speaker 1:that's where the blurred line is. That's what stops you from making a thing, because it's like it's their brand and it's their thing. So you know, they're the ones that should be like look, you've come to do a shoot with us. You benefit from this as well as we do. So can you not speak to my like team like that? Or you know?
Speaker 2:because if you don't like it, leave you've got to think, though, in some people's scenarios where they're famous, being famous is just collateral for them doing their art, like ben affleck had a really good interview about this, where he said he just does his thing and he's famous as a byproduct, and he doesn't necessarily enjoy fame, it's just part of the job, and so that's how some celebrities see it where they've got to do press or they've got to do this thing, and they're not bothered about being famous, or like what you think, or what the audience thinks they just do their art and that's what is fulfilling to them.
Speaker 2:And yeah, you know it's come with like these, almost like these, uh, restraints that they never asked for. Ben affleck had an amazing thing on it. I might try and link that below, because he did a I'd like to watch that, yeah I don't know what interview it's from, but I saw it recently. But yeah, I thought it was just uh, that scenario and something else I learned as well. When the talent sat down, they spoke about how the key light was too bright, and that was the first time I've ever had that.
Speaker 1:I was going to say what lights were you?
Speaker 2:using. It was an Aputure 600D, but the light was on 30% though, so I don't know what the fuck they were on about. Yeah, I don't know learning lesson and even now, like still learning, still picking up on these you know little nuances and I think when you first start doing your art as a career, you do want to make money and you do want to because it's new and you you want to survive on it and blah, blah, and then eventually you start making pretty decent money and then you keep making decent money.
Speaker 2:so then when you don't make decent, any decent money anymore, you get bothered about it and you sacrifice, like pandering to a client or pandering to a director or pandering to whatever, and you kind of lose what art was to you and the integrity and what video was to you, and more recently I've just been really kind of like this is mine okay and yeah and I think people really open up to you and you're like that yeah interested well, I'm glad you learned. I'm feeling wholesome man. I'm feeling glad you. I'm glad you learned something. Yeah'm feeling wholesome man, I'm glad you learned something.
Speaker 1:I think we should wrap the episode there, but no, I appreciate you and like it's nice to have an on set situation that you've literally like experienced in the last week, talking about it on the show so other people can listen yeah, like it's all collaboration realistically and, as Rick Rubin said, it's in service of the art amen to that.
Speaker 1:Well, if you made it this far, guys, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. Please can you leave a five star review if you're listening to us on spotify? If you like the show, of course, it does wonders for us. Um, and please subscribe to the newsletter, which is in our instagram bio if you haven't already and follow us on instagram and follow us on instagram why not?
Speaker 1:and drop us a. Drop us a little message. If you have any questions and if there's anything you'd like us to discuss, please do. Um so, yeah, thanks so much for listening, guys, and we'll see you in the next episode. Peace out. Bye, guys.
